Progressive Boink

[Alex]

I had a post a few pages ago that nobody responded to, but I guess I don't stand out or a lot of people have me blocked or something.

Oh well, generic poster #456 will catch you later.

[webber]

As a total side issue how popular is libertarianism in countries other than the U.S? Basically webber and any Canadians can answer. I've never met anyone here who claims to be a libertarian, most people I have asked have never even heard of it. (I'm not saying there are no libertarians in the U.K., just that libertarianism has an incredibly low profile.)

Yeah, someone I went to uni with who was incredibly well educated and reasonably worldly did not know the difference between liberal and libertarian. It simply doesn't come up. The only self-described libertarian I have ever met in real life was a finance professor who had spent a lot of his time in America. There is a small minority party in New Zealand that are basically libertarians, but they aren't interested in cutting government services to the same extent as what the average internet libertarian would want (and their popularity has been waning for a while, too).

I think it's just that down here (and probably in the UK too), the whole political spectrum just isn't as right wing as it is in America. John Howard catches a lot of shit for his policies that are basically fucking over the working class, but if he tried some of the stuff that seems to be agreed between the Democrats and the Republicans in the US, I don't think people would accept it. And there's no real party to the right of the one currently in government. I get the feeling that most political climates in Europe and Japan are similar to this, although of course I don't have the experience to back that up.

[Maynard,]

Libertarianism isn't particularly popular in the United States to my knowledge, but my area of the country is not likely to be representative of the general libertarian population. The only person I have ever met claiming to be libertarian was the candidate for state governor. He also runs unsuccessfully in every election for something. I did vote for him for something a couple times because I didn't like the other candidates.

[James]

i would probably attribute it to the fact that everybody likes to vote for what they specifically want and are usually unwilling to compromise for the common good

i mean you guys have pretty much illustrated that

but yeah keep perpetuating a cycle of petty hatred, i hope that works out for you all

let me also add how fantastic i think it is that through belittling, close-mindedness, and intolerance you've managed to somehow defend the ideals of compassion and acceptance

[Terry Cheesecake]

but yeah keep perpetuating a cycle of petty hatred

like stereotypes do?

[James]

yeah except people don't generally consider stereotypes to be morally justifiable, just something that is necessary to facilitate human interaction

[Rusty Cooledge v2]

A common stereotypical belief held by some ignorant whites, despite moral justification, is that the common black man is highly likely to rob and/or assault them given the chance, breeding distrust and hatred of a whole race. How does this aid human interaction rather than strain relations?

[James]

Stereotypes are not abstract ideas generated out of nothing. If it was widely seen to be untrue then people would stop believing it. Therefore I think if black people want the stereotype to change then THEY need to do something about it. White people can "oh no our privilege" all they want, but if black people don't do something to change the perception then they are just perpetuating it.

[James]

Also here I'd like to call attention to studies of pluralistic ignorance, where African Americans chose to sit with other African Americans SPECIFICALLY because they thought it would be frowned upon (by both blacks and whites) if they sat near whites. The poll indicated that none of them really felt this way (they would have been okay if someone else had done it) but THEY ALL THOUGHT THAT WAS HOW IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE and they ALL thought that EVERYONE ELSE thought it, and that's why it continued.

Not sure how it specifically relates to my argument right here but I just thought it was an interesting, semi-relevant article. I can't find the actual study online but I have it in paper form right here.

[Rusty Cooledge v2]

That is quite interesting no doubt. Welp, back to what I said.

I'm not going to deny a disproportionate number of black males are involved in crime, whether it be from the percentage in America that has done jail time or whatever other evidence there may be of that. And on an individual basis it is their own fault, same with any white who leads a life of crime. Keep in mind I am at the moment ignoring any situations with blacks being framed or tried due to racism, because I am certain this has happened. That's just too complex to deal with in the current discussion.

When it reaches a point that large groups of similar beings partake in similar negative behavior we must look deeper. Blacks are not born wanting to steal and shit. It's a factor of environment, most likely financial status. Blacks are not as well off as whites are in this country which is potentially a huge factor.

Now an assumption is being made that if this stereotype exists then blacks are to blame. This seems highly unfair to those who do not in fact perpetuate this stereotype.

Not to mention the other reasons stereotypes arise, being petty hatred arisen from ignorance or isolated incidents attributed to a whole race. It's also easy to believe a stereotype if we never look deeper. Which we should.

I'm not sitting here seeing a video of a black guy slugging a grandma in the face and thinking THAT POOR BLACK MAN, and actually am probably pretty fucking angry about it. But even that won't guide how I deal with or think of any black person I may encounter, short of any evidence that would lead me to avoid anyone of any race, i.e. holding a gun in a dark alley.

Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Environment however does a major job of shaping these actions; we would obviously be very different people if we were raised in Compton as black men. Stereotypes do not help this. They have belittled blacks, as well as whites, and strained relations, and created in some cases an us versus them mentality that we simply do not need.

Final point: People should be less judgmental and nicer. I'm not even going to judge those who hold stereotypes. I'm merely suggesting they aren't helpful, and in fact lead to false accusation more often than not.

[James]

Final point: People should be less judgmental and nicer.

HOLY COW YOU FIGGERED IT OUT PROFESSER

[Rusty Cooledge v2]

AND YET WE HOLD SOMEWHAT CONTRADICTORY OPINIONS

OH WE ARE SUCH A PAIR~

[James]

Well, I mean, not really. I've stated that, in a perfect world, we wouldn't use stereotypes, but since we DON'T, and we don't have an infinite amount of time to judge everyone that we meet as an individual (especially if our contact is limited to "walkin' down the street"), stereotypes basically serve as a starting point for perception. And while I have stated that black people should try harder to improve their reputations instead of waiting for white people just to go "oh well i guess all black people are totally great", it is also the responsibility of white people to actually LISTEN when they try to change their reputation. What is being suggested in this thread is that white people are solely responsible for undoing racism and stereotyping, and I don't think that's accurate.

[Rusty Cooledge v2]

oh no i hope the rest of the board doesnt shoot me for being on the james side

I concur mostly other than black people continuing their negative portrayal, just because I know most of them turn on the TV, see their dumbshit cousin getting hauled away on Cops, and just think "welp 50 years of progress down the drain." while we do a celebratory dance and laugh LMAO STUPID BLACK

Indeed, if we consider it to be the responsibility of whites to listen and responsibility of blacks to do better, it's a lost cause for the time being because both of our cultures have retards in them that fuck everything up. Not to mention that undeniably it is much harder for the black race to turn things around with their weaker economic status.

[James]

But at the same time, if you put the responsibility of black people's general economic status on white people, then black people are just going to go "whatever we will let them deal with us". It's giving a man a fish, it's not teaching him how. There should be an investment in public buildings in predominantly Poor Black areas, but we can't make them learn. The onus is on them to use the tools that we provide them with.

[Justin]

i would probably attribute it to the fact that everybody likes to vote for what they specifically want and are usually unwilling to compromise for the common good

i mean you guys have pretty much illustrated that

but yeah keep perpetuating a cycle of petty hatred, i hope that works out for you all

let me also add how fantastic i think it is that through belittling, close-mindedness, and intolerance you've managed to somehow defend the ideals of compassion and acceptance

I really want you to go away.

[Rusty Cooledge v2]

doyyyyyyy all my good will squandered!

(wait a minute is there any way i could portray james as being the boards equivalent of the black man and make some brilliant argument)

(hmm nope shit)

[James]

well since you told me in AIM last night that you were specifically trying to rile me up i feel free to ignore you justin

[Justin]

yeah man, using the word butthurt ironically is comparable to telling us we're all intolerant, closed-minded, hatemongers.

[James]

except that those are words that have also been used to describe me